The Daily Populous Sunday October 26th, 2025 evening edition
Authored by abcnews.go.com and submitted by purpleWord_spudger

ABC's Jonathan Karl has the exclusive details in his new book, "Retribution."

'You'll go down as a wimp:' Pence's never-before-published notes key evidence in case against Trump, book says

Vice President Mike Pence presides over a joint session of Congress to certify the 2020 Electoral College results on January 6, 2021, in Washington, D.C.

Donald Trump berated Mike Pence, calling his then-vice president a "wimp" during their final phone call on Jan. 6, 2021, hours before Congress certified the 2020 election of Joe Biden, according to Pence's previously unpublished notes included in a new book by ABC News Chief Washington Correspondent Jonathan Karl.

According to court filings, had his case against Trump gone to trial, special counsel Jack Smith planned to use the handwritten notes -- hastily scribbled on Pence's day planner -- as evidence to document the hours before Trump allegedly directed a violent mob to storm the Capitol.

Vice President Mike Pence presides over a joint session of Congress to certify the 2020 Electoral College results on January 6, 2021, in Washington, D.C. Erin Schaff/Getty Images, FILE

"You'll go down as a wimp," Trump told Pence about his decision not to block Biden's certification, according to Pence's notes about the call on the morning of Jan. 6, just before the president took the stage at the "Save America" rally on the Ellipse. "If you do that, I made a big mistake 5 years ago," Pence wrote Trump told him.

The exclusive details are reported in Karl's upcoming book, "Retribution: Donald Trump and the Campaign that Changed America."

Special Prosecutor Jack Smith walks away after addressing reporters after his grand jury has issued more indictments of former President Donald Trump in Washington, DC. Bill O'Leary/The Washington Post via Getty Images

The notes also include what appears to be a scribble of an angry emoji after Trump told Pence, "You listen to the wrong people," according to Karl.

Among the terabytes of evidence Smith amassed in his investigation, including a forensic copy of Trump's own phone documenting his digital activity on Jan. 6, are draft versions of his speech on the Ellipse showing it was hurriedly changed to target Pence directly. The materials were never publicly released before the dismissal of the case following Trump's reelection, creating a gap in the historical record of the former-and-future president's alleged actions.

In his final report to Attorney General Merrick Garland made public this past January, Smith said the evidence his team gathered would have proved that Trump "used lies as a weapon to defeat a federal government function foundational to the United States' democratic process."

Karl reports the materials might have been some of the government's strongest documentary evidence about the days leading up to the Jan. 6 insurrection, but that the Supreme Court's July 2024 ruling on presidential immunity potentially curtailed Smith's ability to use the evidence against Trump had the prosecution proceeded.

"Retribution," a new book by Jonathan Karl. Penguin Random House

Before resigning in January, Smith argued in his report to Garland that he had enough evidence to convict the former president had voters not sent him back to the White House in 2024.

"The Department's view that the Constitution prohibits the continued indictment and prosecution of a President is categorical and does not turn on the gravity of the crimes charged, the strength of the Government's proof, or the merits of the prosecution, which the Office stands fully behind," Smith wrote to conclude the report. "Indeed, but for Mr. Trump's election and imminent return to the Presidency, the Office assessed that the admissible evidence was sufficient to obtain and sustain a conviction at trial."

ABC's "This Week" aired Mike Pence's interview with co-anchor Jonathan Karl on March 19, 2023. ABC News

According to Smith's original indictment of the former president, Pence's "contemporaneous notes" of his meetings with Trump documented how the then-president was repeatedly corrected about his false claims of voter fraud, suggesting that he continued to push the claims despite knowing they were unfounded.

In the days preceding the certification of the 2020 election, Trump and his allies had repeatedly pressured Pence to use his role overseeing the certification to block Biden's victory, though Pence said he consistently rebuffed entreaties to manipulate or delay the certification.

President Donald Trump speaks at the "Save America March" rally in Washington D.C., Jan. 6, 2021. Anadolu Agency via Getty Images, FILE

According to Pence's memoir "So Help Me God," he received a phone call from Trump around 11 a.m. on Jan. 6 -- the time Trump was originally scheduled to begin his speech on the Ellipse -- during which Trump allegedly made his final attempt to persuade him to block the election's certification.

According to Pence's notes, Trump called him a "wimp" after Pence said he planned to issue a statement saying he lacked the "power" to block the certification.

"You're not protecting our country, you're supposed to support + defend our country," Pence wrote, according to Karl.

"I said we both [took] an oath to support + defend the Constitution," Pence said, according to his notes Karl reports. "It doesn't take courage to break the law. It takes courage to uphold the law."

House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6 Attack on the U.S. Capitol holds its last public hearing, Dec. 19, 2022, in Washington, D.C. Mandel Ngan/AFP via Getty Images, FILE

Multiple witnesses in the White House that morning told the House Select Committee on Jan. 6 that the conversation between Pence and Trump quickly became "heated," with Trump's daughter Ivanka Trump recalling that her father used a "different tone" from what she'd previously heard him use with Pence.

"I remember hearing the word 'wimp,'" Nicholas Luna, Trump's former assistant, said in a taped deposition. "Either he called him a wimp, I don't remember if he said, 'You are a wimp, you'll be a wimp.' Wimp is the word I remember."

Retired Lt. Gen. Keith Kellogg -- Trump's special envoy for Ukraine and Russia -- told the committee in a taped deposition that he remembers Trump telling Pence he wasn't "tough enough."

Approximately an hour after their conversation, Trump would take the stage and call on his supporters to march toward the Capitol where Pence was set to certify the vote.

Prosecutors were able to support their timeline of events in part using a forensic copy of Trump's iPhone, which showed a breakdown of when the phone was locked and unlocked by the president on the afternoon of Jan. 6, Karl reports.

According to Karl, the report also included a screenshot of Trump's iPhone lock screen, which showed an image of Trump in a red MAGA hat giving a thumbs-up.

Trump's phone also appeared to contain evidence demonstrating that Trump understood he had lost the election and was aware of the extent of the violence taking place at the Capitol, the book says.

President Donald Trumps supporters gather outside the Capitol building in Washington D.C., Jan. 6, 2021. Tayfun Coskun/Anadolu Agency via Getty Images, FILE

According to Karl, the FBI's report on Trump's phone showed that the device was used to access multiple images that depicted the violence at the Capitol, including violent confrontations between officers and protestors, and photos of then-mortally wounded Ashli Babbitt, who was later pronounced dead at the hospital after being shot as she tried to enter the House floor. At 7 p.m. on Jan. 6 -- the same day Trump was suspended from the social media platform -- his phone was also used to visit a Twitter help page about accounts locked on Jan. 6, one day after Trump was locked out of his Twitter account, Karl reports.

Smith would have used the digital forensic evidence to demonstrate Trump's state of mind and knowledge of events as they unfolded to support the special counsel's allegation that Trump knowingly deceived voters about the election result, the book says.

"The throughline of all of Mr. Trump's criminal efforts was deceit," Smith wrote in the final report.

Wings81 on October 26th, 2025 at 13:31 UTC »

Mike Pence did one decent thing in his entire political life in not overturning the election. A real patriot vice president would have led the charge to make sure Trump was never allowed anywhere near the oval office again.

Howie_Doon on October 26th, 2025 at 13:20 UTC »

In my opinion, Mike Pence and Mitch McConnell are two people who could have caused a conviction during the second impeachment. The Republicans' refusal to fairly judge and vote accordingly was a blatant and shameful power grab. It is no exaggeration to say Democracy itself is now at great risk. The Republicans still have a chance to save us and future generations from this collapse into authoritarianism with a call for impeachment, but I dare say that no one expects that. No Kings!

Benoit_Guillette on October 26th, 2025 at 12:50 UTC »

Trump (the “stable genius”) was not able to threaten Mike Pence over the Electoral College, so he wanted a civil war. Trump's civil war started Jan 6 and it's on going.